[Poll] What shall we do with the Q/A failed rings?


  • Community Helper

    Sound ideas there, we shouldn't expect the world from John and the team - postage twice is too much to ask with everything else that has been offered so far.

    Perhaps if someone wants to put their hand up for putting together a hackerspace resource pack I could pitch a Qa visual fail ring your way... Volunteers?



  • Seems intersting ...



  • @johnyma22 said:

    Yea I agree I think we should be:
    b) Sending visual fail rings to backers who haven't had their order yet, however these rings should be sent with their order.

    Noooooo! Part of the problem with those of us who've not received a single ring yet is often it is because we pledged/supported more and went with The Collection. But because our rings won't be sent until the entire Collection is ready we're sitting waiting while those around us who only pledged for a single ring have already got theirs. Giving us a visual fail ring would ideally happen right now so that we've got something to play with, right now. Otherwise we'll still be sitting with no ring to play with and the promise of yet another ring at some unspecified point in the future. At that point we won't really care so much about the visual failed ring because we'll have our real rings (* except for those that got switched for CF, or stealth bomber replacements)

    Or is that just me?


  • NFC Ring Team

    @shama Simply put though, we can't afford two lots of postage for the outstanding orders ;\



  • @johnyma22 said:

    Simply put though, we can't afford two lots of postage for the outstanding orders ;\

    So what if we sent you a quid or two (those of us in the UK)? Forget fancy packaging, how heavy is a ring?


  • Community Helper

    @shama said:

    So what if we sent you a quid or two (those of us in the UK)? Forget fancy packaging, how heavy is a ring?

    While that would be a nice solution you've got to make allowances for how that will affect packaging and dispatch of current orders - you're adding a whole new 'order' list along with collection of the postage and packaging fee for each one. It potentially slows down the process for current orders which makes things worse again!



  • @Lokki The trouble is the reason of "it will slow down dispatch" has been used also to explain why updates don't appear when they should too ... and from the perspective of people who haven't received any rings an additional delay of the half-day it takes to produce an update is nor a good one. Looking at the KS page nearly all of the raging would be non-existent if communication was (a) regular and (b) factual. What annoyed people the most was not knowing what was happening, and then closely followed by updates that were based on intentions (like the one that said Collections were starting to be shipped, but something else went wrong and that looking-ahead statement was then wrong).

    But believe it or not I am being patient. I was expecting my rings in October, just in time for a sibling's birthday. Then Christmas, just in time for an xmas present instead. Now we're at the end of June and I'm still waiting patiently. If the others who are in the minority I'm in (not having received a ring) are anything like me then the single thing that would make them the happiest right now is to get their hands on a ring ... even a visually failed one, or a one-sided one. Receiving one at the same time we get our order will be nice, but will not have nearly the same impact as getting one right now, because by then we'll have our rings.

    At this point a delay to our order of a half-day, day, heck even a week, is pretty insignificant if it means we can definitely, absolutely, get a ring in a week. Otherwise we're still just in this situation of getting our order at some unspecified time in the future. When? Who knows. It's been over two weeks since a KS update has been posted, although John did post in the comments 4 days ago that there was a new problem with high QA fails on the alphas ...


  • Community Helper

    @shama I can understand that point of view, but mine is that I'm also waiting on a collection... and the delays could conceivably put me out by forcing a longer wait. My view probably isn't an isolated one, wanting focus instead of sideways segues into pandering to the masses to stop the weeping and incipient tears.
    The trouble with something like that is that if you offer it to one, it has to be offered to all really or the cries of 'unfair, what about me' end up ten times worse than the displeasure of waiting ever was. Then everybody does it and suddenly that's all the packing and dispatch team is able to focus on due to backer displeasure.

    It's a matter of perspective really, I'm continually surprised by how off the reactions can be in this project. If you want to see real backer pain then anything by smARtMAKER is an interesting read (I backed something by them on IGG in a fit of foolishness). These guys trampled roughshod over their backers and appear to have disappeared into the great blue unknown with several large wads of cash and yet their backers are still defending them - here, John and the team look like they're dancing the limbo 'cause they're bending over backwards to please people and yet they cop a very vocal minority's displeasure, regularly. I don't get that at all, it's strange to me.

    At this point in time I would say that almost all of those still waiting are because of ring changes be it due to PVD or carbon fiber or other unforeseen circumstances. It's pretty safe to assume that all those still waiting are going to be taking advantage of free ring vouchers, as well as a QA visual fail into the bargain. How much more can we expect of John to keep people happy, really? Bear in mind also that things at this point (and for some time now) have been well and truly outside the funds raised in kickstarter.

    I also want to point out that you not receiving a collection doesn't mean that no collections were shipped, some were but others were affected by the Alpha ring problem which also affected some single and double orders.



  • @Lokki said:

    @shama I can understand that point of view, but mine is that I'm also waiting on a collection... and the delays could conceivably put me out by forcing a longer wait.

    Longer than what though? Just saying 'it will delay things' has no absolute value when things are already delayed, and will be delayed some more. There's no timeline for definition-of-done, so a delay is just meaningless at this point.

    You're in a unique position in that you have a bunch of prototypes, QA fails and who-knows-what else. Most people hit with the delays have zero rings to play with ... nada. You're happy to wait for perfection because you have play things to keep you going in the meantime. The rest of us just look at pretty pictures and videos.

    My view probably isn't an isolated one, wanting focus instead of sideways segues into pandering to the masses to stop the weeping and incipient tears.

    Yeah not sure 'weeping and incipient tears' is entirely fair. And instead of viewing it as a sideways seque it should be viewed as the inevitable result of many failings along this path. Aiming for perfection is good, but keeping the public happy is arguably even more important.

    The trouble with something like that is that if you offer it to one, it has to be offered to all really or the cries of 'unfair, what about me' end up ten times worse than the displeasure of waiting ever was. Then everybody does it and suddenly that's all the packing and dispatch team is able to focus on due to backer displeasure.

    Yep - and with so many failed rings available that doesn't seem unreasonable does it? I'm not even saying they should be given free, but first-refusal to buy a visual fail ring for the cost of postage-and-packaging. Yes there will be back-end SKUs to sort out, but a store exists already that seems to able to handle a range of SKUs, identify customers and the other things necessary. I don't expect it to happen though, because the team trying to manage the logistics of this is pitifully small and is already over-stretched.

    It's a matter of perspective really, I'm continually surprised by how off the reactions can be in this project. If you want to see real backer pain then anything by smARtMAKER is an interesting read (I backed something by them on IGG in a fit of foolishness). These guys trampled roughshod over their backers and appear to have disappeared into the great blue unknown with several large wads of cash and yet their backers are still defending them - here, John and the team look like they're dancing the limbo 'cause they're bending over backwards to please people and yet they cop a very vocal minority's displeasure, regularly. I don't get that at all, it's strange to me.

    Comparing one group to another and saying "well they're better than them" isn't really a great sell PR wise: they should be aiming to be great in their own right, not just in comparison to a shit group.

    a QA visual fail into the bargain. How much more can we expect of John to keep people happy, really? Bear in mind also that things at this point (and for some time now) have been well and truly outside the funds raised in kickstarter.

    Yes they have gone above and beyond in some areas, way more than I think should have been done. The cost of all those free-ring vouchers, and free replacements are gonna be **massive **compared to the cost if they'd just paid for P&P on visual fails to get a ring into backers hands ASAP while the manufacturing problems with their real rings was dealt with. I am not surprised the money involved in this project is now way beyond the KS funds. I've also seen mention about how the collections were too much of a bargain (for the backers) and if we've got one we shouldn't really complain because it's costing the company money ... that's just bad business. I respect Johns technical knowledge and engineering know-how but I think he is way out of his comfort zone when it comes to PR and accounting.

    I also want to point out that you not receiving a collection doesn't mean that no collections were shipped, some were but others were affected by the Alpha ring problem which also affected some single and double orders.

    Yeah I'm just one of the unlucky ones whose original order was a collection consisting of a stealth bomber, normal with silver CF and alpha with transparent ... the perfect storm of Chinese factory cock-ups :)


  • Community Helper

    @shama I'm not negating anything you're saying out of hand, you've got valid points and they do need to be aired. This is just me trying to show the other perspective, it's all my own opinions and whatnot, not Mclear co's. When I'm answering things I'm not just answering you either, I'm answering whoever else comes along and reads this later. Also you're right, I have been luckier than some, but I don't see how that equates to making possible further delays for those remaining an ok thing. I had two pre-production rings both of which are dead now due to issues that were corrected in the normal course of development, I also have a handful of QA Visual Fails that I don't use - they're for the rings for innovation deal. Anyone who wants one can put their hand up for one! What I use mostly is a handful of swipe cards, key fobs and ntag203 stickers and anyone can do that much.

    The one principle of anything ever that I truly believe in is the KISS principle. There are so many times where adhering to that one would have saved trouble, time and effort. "Keep It Simple, Stupid.' is what it stands for.
    John does listen to the community and if the community screams for something then they may just get it BUT it's not necessarily going to be the best thing.
    Titanium versus steel for instance. Community wanted it, community got it. It's a good thing, no argument from me, but if we'd stuck with the original prototypes we'd all already have our rings.
    Real Carbon Fiber versus the paper lookalike... Community wanted it, community almost got it. Again, I don't think the paper insert was the way to go. Still, it was a lot of time spent on development that didn't get anywhere because of supply issues for the one that worked and visual issues for the nearest replacement after that one became unavailable.
    I don't think that at this late hour it's the best idea for the community to push for something else, the QA visual fail is better being with the order than confusing issues by becoming a seperate thing. Other ideas like the hackerspace donation of visual fails is going to do far more for the community than a pause for delivery of single visual fails to whomever needs a ring.

    Hmm, that does sound a little harsh re-reading it. Call it a late night and lack of sleep for the past week, I could have been a little more tactful. The point stands though, it's all well and good trying to keep everybody happy but it does knock-on to everything else. You can never keep everyone happy, there'll always be some degree of upset in anything. I saw one comment on kickstarter just recently where the guy got his, was too confused and binned it. It happens and you simply cannot please everyone all the time.

    Again, I'm not part of the company - my comparison of one group to another is my comparison and no one else's. I offer perspective, you don't have to see things my way. My point was that people can be unreasonable in their expectations, it's not about one group being better than another, it was about the reactions of the backers in each case.
    Also remember that the company is small, I wouldn't expect the company to grow larger until after this period when they can actually start making proper sales



  • I sent a message a couple of weeks ago asking about the possibility of "donating" some QA fail rings to an Android hacker group I take part in for use in an NFC-night to inspire new app-integration. I believe I used the contact form on the web-page, since I can't find a copy of a sent e-mail.

    Is it fair to assume since no reply was received, there is no interest in that sort of activity at the moment? I know things are busy, but a simple answer like "let's look at this in the autumn" or "yes" or "no" would be fine.


  • Community Helper

    @bunker could you private message me with the details please, I'll pass them along and see if we can sort something out there.


  • Community Helper

    the website (store) contact form goes to support@nfcring.com and you should have received an ticket number if not there has been an error during transmission. I had a problem with the form a while ago but we tested it and it worked. maybe @johnyma22 should test it again to be sure.



  • I didn't get a ticket-number so it looks like my pitch is gone into the cyperspace trash-pile. Serves me right for using a contact form on a web-site, they don't work reliably like email or PM on a forum.

    Oh well, I wrote a new pitch to Lokki in a PM.


  • Community Helper

    Yeah but this is a problem. When you use such a form it should either work or not be present as this leads to problems.



  • @Lafunamor Agree. But unfortunately as a user it's impossible to know and since the concept of contact forms doesn't require them to work, it means you won't know. And because of that I normally avoid them. And I believe that's why we shouldn't have them at all.


  • Community Helper

    Just to weigh in on this, I think this kind of thing is better to be filtered through the forums rather than through a support form. Granted, the support form didn't work - perhaps it was an issue with the size of the request, but still I'd like to see this kind of thing filter through this thread or the rings for innovation thread, cos that's what it boils down to.


  • Community Helper

    I can only half agree. on one side they like to have things driven by the community but on the other side this is a decision that has a great impact on the company. so probably the best would be discussing it here and then get it "aproved" by McLear Ldt



  • @Lokki said:

    Just to weigh in on this, I think this kind of thing is better to be filtered through the forums rather than through a support form. Granted, the support form didn't work - perhaps it was an issue with the size of the request, but still I'd like to see this kind of thing filter through this thread or the rings for innovation thread, cos that's what it boils down to.

    Ok. So what I did was send a request for a number of rings for an open Android hacker group that I attend from time to time. The thought in short is to get some rings to use for innovation, be it new apps or adding nfc(-ring) support to existing apps. It's a great group of developers in my opinion and the thought was to try to organize an NFC hack-night.

    I think it would be great if this was arranged in other parts of the world as well, using those QA-failed rings to bring potentially lots more use for the rings.

    I'm not going to re-iterate a bunch of details since I've already written it twice and it's honestly getting a bit tedious.

    If you refer to the rings for innovation thread, I don't feel that this matches, as my idea is to get QA-fail rings in advance, on the basis that they may be used for innovation. I don't really see this option in the current poll, but this is what I feel is the best use of those rings, regardless of wether the group I attend gets rings or not.


  • Community Helper

    These sorts of ideas are exactly what is wanted in discussion both here and in the rings for innovation thread. Or just generally on the forums! Remember, the wish at the moment is to spur on innovation.